TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

dHarban wrote: Curtis's shindig up in Montana

Don

I like it, Shindig is a good word for it!
Nice, at least someone gets it!

Curtis

My 2 cents on the ESAP:

1. Thanks to the the LSF officers for their time and efforts put forth to get this program down on paper. Since no one wanted to replace you gents in the last election, this must confirm your thoughts that it is a thankless job that no body else would want. Pretty much the same thing the Sailplane Clubs are experiencing.

2. LSF is currently faced with the task of putting on the annual AMA Nats and looking for ways to keep the LSF program alive and well. I would like to add to the list of LSF officers tasks, doing what they can to promote sailplane club growth because the sailplane clubs in general are fading fast. Newer folks to this hobby probably have no idea of what the clubs activities were and how many members participated. The irony of today's electric powered sailplane interest, is for many, the self launch ability now available to everyone reduces the need for a Sailplane club. The ESAP is a step in the right direction to help promote club activity and growth. Clubs should embrace the ESAP and the SAP as a way to give reasons to new club member prospects a reason to join a club.

3. If I read correctly, there will be no personal Identification distinction between accomplishing the ESAP and SAP. I'm probably wrong, but if I'm not, this is what I think about it.

This rings of current political correctness guys. YOU MUST REMEMBER ... The soul of LSF is competition, there will be guys like Don Harris and others who are super proud of their LSF SAP efforts that will definitely want to conquer the ESAP program as well and VISE VERSE. They will definitely want an ID indicating they mastered both programs. If I'm wrong on what I think I read, please forgive me.

4. Both the SAP and ESAP programs are needed ... by LSF, by Clubs and by AMA. If a pilot doesn't need an AMA club to fly his electric and he doesn't fly sanctioned contests, he doesn't need an AMA membership just for insurance purposes. A strong club embracing both programs is the only hope of keeping LSF alive and well. If some other group embraces an Electric powered sailplane accomplishment program and LSF does not, this will only speed up the process of eliminating the need/importance for our LSF.

Wishing you all a Happy and Healthy New Year.

Ray
Woodys Forever
WWW.Skybench.com

RayHayes wrote: ....3. If I read correctly, there will be no personal Identification distinction between accomplishing the ESAP and SAP. I'm probably wrong, but if I'm not, this is what I think about it.

This rings of current political correctness guys. YOU MUST REMEMBER ... The soul of LSF is competition, there will be guys like Don Harris and others who are super proud of their LSF SAP efforts that will definitely want to conquer the ESAP program as well and VISE VERSE. They will definitely want an ID indicating they mastered both programs. If I'm wrong on what I think I read, please forgive me....

Ray
Woodys Forever
WWW.Skybench.com

Hi Ray,

I copied the following straight from the most current proposal from this site. If I read it correctly people completing levels in the eSAP will be able to display a letter "E" next to the level to signify that the level was completed under the new eSAP. If the proposal is adopted that is what I plan to do as I will be working both programs and will need to differentiate which level goes with which program.

By the way, I saw your post about the possible e-woody event this coming summer. I might just need to retrofit one of my planes just so I can attend. My current ALES plane isn't woody legal.

Wayne

Section 7 - Amended Version
Aspirants may not display any LSF insignia, but may participate in all organizational activities, subject to such rules and regulations as may
be imposed by these Bylaws, except that they may not vote or hold office.
Members may indentify their LSF status by their LSF number followed by a Roman numeral indicating their highest LSF Level achieved. Members participating in the ESAP may add a capital “E” if they so desire.

Is it really so complex to stick with the current SAP wording for affixing RED roman numerals to designate each particular level achieved under the SAP (like we have done for 40 years)? And then to add wording in the ESAP that individuals MAY affix BLUE roman numerals to designate each particular level achieved under the ESAP AND MAY affix BLACK roman numerals to designate each particular level achieved under BOTH the ESAP and the SAP.

And then we can see not only who is first to achieve the ESAP Level V, but the first to display a BLACK "V" designating the first to achieve BOTH the SAP and ESAP Level V's.

I know this may be too complex for some of us, but I suspect that we have a few remaining rocket scientists who could sort it out.

It seems to me that recognition of completing particular levels of BOTH the SAP and the ESAP is a worthy objective.

Happy Landings,

Don

200m launch height for ALES In the eSAP proposal is a disadvantage compared to to winch in the SAP.

This was posted on RCGroups for a Supra:
- Launch. I can regulary get 225-235 meters launch in calm conditions.

Shame I may have to vote this down because of the word "May".

Happy New Year
Curtis

Curtis,
I'll give you $20 if you can launch to 200m off a standard TD winch with the current 300# test braided line set at 500'...more than once.

200m would be possible on a F3J winch with mono and a skilled pilot.

Today is the first day of the rest of your life, go out with your current Telemetry device and do some test launches, then come back with some data, versus a quote from an anonomous typer on RC Groups.

A Paragon on a standard high start gets 400' with a head wind. I'll launch off a winch today here in Kentucky and check the altitudes. Its 30 years old so won't be doing any zooms.

But one more point...I started both my 10k and 2 hour thermal flights from under 100'....because I didn't have a motor, short downwind launches that didn't work out till my plane was in the landing approach. That's what the tasks prepare pilots to do...learn to work air to stay up.
Happy New Year !
Gordy

Gordy,
A winch does not exist in the state of Montana as far as I know. I have no telemetry device. I only own one TD ship and I would sell it in a heartbeat. I will never be a Level V of anything due to time and money. I bought my job but won't buy my hobby recognition. Thanks for the money offer but I will follow my dad's lead; he was handicapped and never took a dime of Medicaid and I won't accept your money either.

Gordy you insinuate I am hiding info by your word use of anonymous. I realize the written word leaves room for interpretation. I would prefer you ask me for the link rather than think I have a hidden agenda. Here is your link: www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=27053974&postcount=32

Curtis

By the way, I saw your post about the possible e-woody event this coming summer. I might just need to retrofit one of my planes just so I can attend. My current ALES plane isn't woody legal.

Wayne
____________________________________

The concept of this Woody Electric event is to offer an electric powered sailplane event to the forgotten Woody flyers. Many of them have chopped the nose on their Woody and are flying off by themselves or in small groups. Many have disappeared from their sailplane clubs, some have migrated back to Power Clubs where they can fly their powered Woody sailplane. The ALES contest is fly what you bring ( open - Unlimited ), and photos of these events show 99% pre-made in a mold designs in use. To some, better known as " high dollar designs ". This is intimidating to some Woody flyers and so they don't show up. Hats off to the ALES pilot flying an OLY ll that finished in the top ten of the year long nation wide Ales contest pilots standings.

If my event takes place, this is what it will look like.

Two Day event for Wood Crafter Woody Rules, 2M, Std., Unl. size classes, no restrictions on motor/battery, 150m or 30 sec which ever occurs first launch limit, flight Task is 10 minute in all rounds all size classes, pre entry only, entry fee $5.00 per class per day. Trophies to 3rd each day each class, one 2 day grand champion trophy in each size class.

Forgot what could be the most important part of my contest ... :-)

The landing task set up: LSF Level l and Level ll, In or Out, 25 and 75 point values.

Ray
Woodys Forever
WWW.Skybench.com

Lurking around, I finally have to add a comment or two.
Launch height Ahhhh!! All this talk about Launch. Please stop!
We have all caught grass bubbles at 20' and skied out.
You guys in the mountains, like Larry J, can hand launch and work the ridge and drive down the valley road for 6 miles then turn around and drive and fly the ridge back; meaning 10k is just a matter of picking the right day and wind direction. We in flatlands of NJ have to spend a bit more time and pick the day then drive 4 hours or so to Penn State glider port 79N and launch & drive from road near the the golf course then up 220 to almost Unionville and back.
It's a TIME commitment only. Whether it's a thermal task, landing, or distance; it's really just picking the day to do it.
From my perspective, the only difficult tasks in the LSF SAP are the contest performances.
An ESAP will increase the number of participants and contests. I think that is an inarguable fact.
More contests mean more opportunity to place and score. Yes!! It means more people might get a level V.
Oh the shame of it!!!
If you think that dilutes the value of Level V, diminishes your self worth ,or hurts your ego, go ahead and vote no.

John Jenks

John,
Thanks for coming out of the Lerk. ;) Nice perspective.

Curtis