TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

As proposed, the two SAPs are completely separate. Completing a level in one task will have no bearing on the other task.

Rob Glover, LSF Secretary

The LSF is an organization or League.
SAP is a subpart to the LSF i.e. Soaring Achievement Program.
eSAP would be another subpart to the LSF i.e. Electric Soaring Achievement Program.

You may join one or the other or both. They are 100% completely separate programs. So in now way is the original SAP being touched. Not one bit. The bylaws do not allow any changes to the SAP to happen. Thus the reason behind a parallel second subpart to the LSF called eSAP.

It explains this well under the "News" tab in the green menu bar above.

Curtis
Montana

rglover wrote: As proposed, the two SAPs are completely separate. Completing a level in one task will have no bearing on the other task.

Rob Glover, LSF Secretary

The membership privileges and accolades of an eSAP member and the more difficult higher skill level of a traditional SAP member would be equal, Yes?

According to Jim Deck in post #110, "There will be one LSF with two parallel SAP's". Therefore any one who attains the required Levels in either SAP may vote on those issues. No, there won't be a separate emblem for those in the ESAP." To me this infers that when you achieve a level you are simply that level in LSF with no distinction between ELSF and LSF. I don't think that has been clarified.

So Bob what is your concern? That I say I'm a level V and you're a level V but your level V is better than mine since you accomplished the SAP program and I did the eSAP program?
I would think you'd be right.
Technically you're a LSF SAP V but no one has ever used the SAP as there was only one subset, so the term LSF was used incorrectly for all these years.

So a change in terminology across the world would be needed.
It'll be more like I'm a LSF eSAP V and you're an LSF SAP and eSAP Level V. or just a SAP Level V.

Curtis

Another issue I can see is this:
All thermal duration tasks will be attempted with an electric sailplane equipped with an altitude limiting device set to a maximum launch height of 200 meters (656.17 feet) and a maximum motor run time of 30 seconds.

This may need a change or reworded because my limiter will cut the motor off at 200m but it's quite easy to use the potential energy from the motor run to overfly that altitude by a small margin thus wouldn't that make the task non-compliant? Just splitting hairs but I can see someone asking that question.

Isn't the potential energy from a well executed winch or high start launch the same thing?

I think there needs to be clarification from the Board as to whether the two parallel SAP's will be differentiated from each other with separate titles, LSF and ELSF and whether the emblems will be different. It appears from what was said, they will not be different. This is my objection. Especially when the proposal says "Integrate rather than “pigeonhole” the electric pilots into the LSF. Pilots completing Level I of the parallel program will be bona fide members of the LSF. There will be one LSF with two parallel SAP’s." Integration seems to infer that there will be no distinction between the two.

RedScholefield wrote: Isn't the potential energy from a well executed winch or high start launch the same thing?

The difference is in the way the rule is written. In The AMA rules winch launch line length is specified, which I believe the SAP uses but with the eSAP proposal the rule has a hard altitude limit.

Curtis

The wording was very carefully chosen. Read it carefully as well. It says launch altitude, not motor cutoff altitude. Every task in the SAP has behind it the goal of testing growth in certain skillsets. In this case it includes learning to use the anti-zoom features of the limiters or adjusting the cutoff altitude appropriately.

Curtis Suter wrote: Another issue I can see is this:
All thermal duration tasks will be attempted with an electric sailplane equipped with an altitude limiting device set to a maximum launch height of 200 meters (656.17 feet) and a maximum motor run time of 30 seconds.

This may need a change or reworded because my limiter will cut the motor off at 200m but it's quite easy to use the potential energy from the motor run to overfly that altitude by a small margin thus wouldn't that make the task non-compliant? Just splitting hairs but I can see someone asking that question.