TOPIC: ESAP Proposal

LarryJolly wrote: Ryan,
You are off by a factor of 2....It is 150 meters to the turnaround..No F3B ever got over 700'on a launch..LJ

Maybe I'm looking at an old copy of the rules, but the drawing in 5.3.2.9 shows 200 meters to the turn around and 5.3.2.2.B calls for 200 meter max turn around from the winch. And the LSF task section 7 allows up to 300 meters to the turn around. I'm not sure how high they were launching but recently I launched my Tragi on a mediocre braided line US winch with 600 feet of line (as measured by my gps) launched to 720 feet (as measured by my altimeter) and the F3B models sure seemed to be launching higher. So based on what I observed those models, those winches but with 300 meters to the turn around instead they would be launching to 1500 feet.



Ryan

ryanw wrote:

dHarban wrote: So 1500 feet is OK with you?

It is OK in the SAP so OK with me. From the launching I saw at the Muncie F3B contest this past Memorial Day those models on 300 feet of mono from those winches would launch to about 1500 feet.

If a person thinks a 1500 foot F3B model, a screaming F5B model, or trying to zoom out past a limiter is going to help them on a 30 or 60 minute flight I say more power to them. :)

But, if that is a real hang up for people, how about this alternative?

All thermal duration tasks will be attempted with an electric sailplane either equipped with an altitude limiting device set to a maximum launch height of 200 meters (656.17 feet) or via a timed motor run of 15 seconds. if an altitude limiting device is used then the maximum motor run time of 30 is seconds either verified by the witness or via the the altitude limiting device cutting off the motor run. The flight commences when the sailplane leaves the pilot or a helper’s hand or when the sailplane leaves the ground if a rise-off-ground takeoff is used. A motor restart will void the flight even if the task target is achieved. Starts that coast past 200 meters either with motor on or motor off in the best judgement of the witness will void the flight.

I don't like that proposal. I like the original regarding launching and I would even accept the idea of lowering heights as you go up the ladder.

And I must add, Ryan, that your comments are beginning to feel a bit trollish and disruptive.

Preston

ryanw wrote:

LarryJolly wrote: Ryan,
You are off by a factor of 2....It is 150 meters to the turnaround..No F3B ever got over 700'on a launch..LJ

Maybe I'm looking at an old copy of the rules, but the drawing in 5.3.2.9 shows 200 meters to the turn around and 5.3.2.2.B calls for 200 meter max turn around from the winch. And the LSF task section 7 allows up to 300 meters to the turn around. I'm not sure how high they were launching but recently I launched my Tragi on a mediocre braided line US winch with 600 feet of line (as measured by my gps) launched to 720 feet (as measured by my altimeter) and the F3B models sure seemed to be launching higher. So based on what I observed those models, those winches but with 300 meters to the turn around instead they would be launching to 1500 feet.



Ryan

If you have a problem with the SAP take it up with the Level IV's and V's. Maybe they'll change it. As far as the ESAP goes it's a non issue. Just more flak. Another red herring. Carry on.

Preston

helletp wrote: And I must add, Ryan, that your comments are beginning to feel a bit trollish and disruptive.

I feel my contributions are perfectly legitimate and realistic. I feel a simple timed climb is a perfectly reasonable alternative method to organizing duration tasks. I feel I am offering up ideas and suggestions on how to implement them. You clearly don't like my ideas I will admit to that.

But if you or the moderators of this forum feel I am being trollish or disruptive then feel free to yank my account.

Ryan

helletp wrote: If you have a problem with the SAP take it up with the Level IV's and V's. Maybe they'll change it. As far as the ESAP goes it's a non issue.

I don't have a problem with the SAP. I think I have said many times I like the SAP a lot. I just don't see why a 15 second climb is any different than a 300 meter F3B winch. Both could exist in theory but in practice neither seem to be done.

The 1500 foot 15 second launch that was brought up seems to be the red herring to me. :)

Ryan

We have two situations here.

1) the need for a limiter when performing non-contest tasks in order to enforce the 30 second 200 meter limit. This has NOTHING to do with ALES other than such devices are readily available at reasonable cost. . I endorse this.

2) e-soaring contests. Here I don't see that the 200 meter/30 second rules apply. Since all pilots are competing under common rules it should make no difference whether they use 15 second LMR or 200 meters or 300 meters or 45 seconds. The pilot is being tested against other pilots not against an LSF standard.

I have flown TD contests where we used a circle and you were scored in or out for 25 points, not the AMA standard 100 inch tape.

Most of the winch contests have lines that are no where near the AMA/LSF length limits.

30 seconds/200 meters should be for tasks only, and should not apply to contests.

BTW, for those who want to make it 15 seconds, you clearly do not understand the nature of egliders. We just power them up to get to the same height in 15 seconds, but by putting in a short time you create a power and high cost set-up requirement. With an extended run time, a Radian can make it.

This is why LMR never really took off but ALES is exploding.

ryanw wrote:

helletp wrote: And I must add, Ryan, that your comments are beginning to feel a bit trollish and disruptive.

I feel my contributions are perfectly legitimate and realistic. I feel a simple timed climb is a perfectly reasonable alternative method to organizing duration tasks. I feel I am offering up ideas and suggestions on how to implement them. You clearly don't like my ideas I will admit to that.

But if you or the moderators of this forum feel I am being trollish or disruptive then feel free to yank my account.

Ryan

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion. It does not seem like you are getting a big following so maybe it's time to move on to other points.

And by the way, you did not respond when I asked you about the last LMR contest. Can you tell me?

Preston

At least as I see it, the launch limits would apply to the Flight Tasks, not necessarily to the Competition Requirements.

I think the recent history of LMR and the extent to which ALES and F5J have displaced LMR pretty well says all that needs to be said about that concept.

That being said, I do not see any reason for the ESAP to specify any limits that would apply to events that meet the Competition Requirements. As long as the plane is launched with a motor and most of its flying time is done with the motor off, it is not clear to me what difference it makes. Everyone flying in any particular comp under virtually any rule is presumably flying on a level flying field. Besides ALES and F5J, which pretty well comply with the limits that have been discussed (although it is possible in F5J to launch to higher than 200 meters if you are willing to pay the price) other events are flown which do not limit launch altitude per se (or even restarts).

F5B is limited to 1750 watt-minutes of power with a watt limiting device. Multiple restarts are an integral part of the event (actually duration, distance and speed) are all flown simultaneously. I think any reasonable person who has seen this flown would agree that it is a legitimate sailplane event. It would be wrong to exclude results from these contests from consideration for the ESAP Competition Requirements.

In parts of Europe, a version of F5J is flown with smaller planes that incorporates the possibility of a relaunch like F3J.

The last time I checked, our LMR events are still on the books and if you can get five people who want to fly it, it should count toward the ESAP Competition Requirements.

In the future there will be many new variations on soaring competitions. The provisions of the ESAP related to Flight Requirements should be as inclusive as possible.

On the other hand, the 1500ft launch that you seem to approve is nothing but a joke as it relates to accomplishing the Flight Tasks. Perhaps you can explain why a person who owns a switch and a plane capable of 4000 fpm would remotely consider using it when he could simply run the motor for 15 seconds and get a 300 meter launch to accomplish any particular Flight Task.

BTW: Your estimate that the F3B's (or even F3J's) get 1500 foot launches with 150 meters of line is wildly imaginative. It does not happen. 1000 feet -- maybe.

Most of the guys who are flying electric soaring competitions to day have looked at the LMR concept and have rejected it -- all over the world. There is no reason whatsoever why it should have any place in the completion of the ESAP Flight Tasks.

Happy Landings,

Don

dHarban wrote: At least as I see it, the launch limits would apply to the Flight Tasks, not necessarily to the Competition Requirements.

I think the recent history of LMR and the extent to which ALES and F5J have displaced LMR pretty well says all that needs to be said about that concept.

That being said, I do not see any reason for the ESAP to specify any limits that would apply to events that meet the Competition Requirements. As long as the plane is launched with a motor and most of its flying time is done with the motor off, it is not clear to me what difference it makes. Everyone flying in any particular comp under virtually any rule is presumably flying on a level flying field. Besides ALES and F5J, which pretty well comply with the limits that have been discussed (although it is possible in F5J to launch to higher than 200 meters if you are willing to pay the price) other events are flown which do not limit launch altitude per se (or even restarts).

F5B is limited to 1750 watt-minutes of power with a watt limiting device. Multiple restarts are an integral part of the event (actually duration, distance and speed) are all flown simultaneously. I think any reasonable person who has seen this flown would agree that it is a legitimate sailplane event. It would be wrong to exclude results from these contests from consideration for the ESAP Competition Requirements.

In parts of Europe, a version of F5J is flown with smaller planes that incorporates the possibility of a relaunch like F3J.

The last time I checked, our LMR events are still on the books and if you can get five people who want to fly it, it should count toward the ESAP Competition Requirements.

In the future there will be many new variations on soaring competitions. The provisions of the ESAP related to Flight Requirements should be as inclusive as possible.

On the other hand, the 1500ft launch that you seem to approve is nothing but a joke as it relates to accomplishing the Flight Tasks. Perhaps you can explain why a person who owns a switch and a plane capable of 4000 fpm would remotely consider using it when he could simply run the motor for 15 seconds and get a 300 meter launch to accomplish any particular Flight Task.

BTW: Your estimate that the F3B's (or even F3J's) get 1500 foot launches with 150 meters of line is wildly imaginative. It does not happen. 1000 feet -- maybe.

Most of the guys who are flying electric soaring competitions to day have looked at the LMR concept and have rejected it -- all over the world. There is no reason whatsoever why it should have any place in the completion of the ESAP Flight Tasks.

Happy Landings,

Don

Thanks, Don.

eAnderson wrote: BTW, for those who want to make it 15 seconds, you clearly do not understand the nature of egliders.

I'm just saying there are a lot of e glider flyers out there and many that don't have altimeter switches. If we find some reasonable alternative way to do the performance tasks that would be more inclusive and eliminate the "I'll start the eSAP some day when I get around to buying a limiter". If that means I don't understand the nature of egliders then so be it. :) ;)

helletp wrote: It does not seem like you are getting a big following so maybe it's time to move on to other points.

Well there are 3 of you that don't support my ideas for sure. ;) I'm actually basing my proposal on something Larry wrote and I think I read correctly on rcgroups:

I totally support an separate and distinct ESAP.. I don't even care a bout restarts or CAMS . I find a 30 second motor run adequate.. Show the on off switch to your witness and if you flip the switch the flight is nullified..

I think he is saying "a simple timed 30 second motor run is a good enough baseline". I thought what I posted was a bit of a compromise.

helletp wrote: And by the way, you did not respond when I asked you about the last LMR contest. Can you tell me?

I went back and re read some but I'm not sure what you are referring to here.

dHarban wrote: Perhaps you can explain why a person who owns a switch and a plane capable of 4000 fpm would remotely consider using it when he could simply run the motor for 15 seconds and get a 300 meter launch to accomplish any particular Flight Task.

For the same reason guys do SAP tasks with a bunch of line on their drums that they didn't use. Because on a 30 minute flight 150 meter, 200 meter, 300 meter start, not really that different.

dHarban wrote: BTW: Your estimate that the F3B's (or even F3J's) get 1500 foot launches with 150 meters of line is wildly imaginative. It does not happen. 1000 feet -- maybe.

I did not say that. I said F3B models on F3B winches setup with the allowed 300 meters of line instead would launch to 1500 feet. That would be within the rules of the SAP. But nobody is doing that.

Ryan